The court of appeals just received the last brief in this case. The case has been fully briefed, it is just waiting for it to be docketed for oral arguments.
John Davis
JoinedPosts by John Davis
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21
San Diego: Osbaldo Padron v Watchtower
by wifibandit inhttp://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2016/apr/24/ticker-tough-build-jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-case.
tough to build jehovah's witness sex-abuse case.
11. without documents, says plaintiff, he can’t get justice.
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John Davis
it is not called Our CLAM just like it isn't called the Awake!. It is CLAM and AWAKE!
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
Lee Elder I have read the article, I have read the references, I have read the thread. I don't have a problem with the numbers I have a problem with your methodology. You say that I should have a problem with the people who created the estimating methodology, but that is your organization. When you speak of a Medical Adviser and a Science Adviser when they create these numbers they are representing you and your organization.
Again you never once speak of the limitations of the methodology that was used. It is one thing if you are just saying that this is what you think but you yourself have called this a research project. You are trying to give it more credibility by saying it is research done by an organization that has a Medical Adviser and a Science Adviser. I am not even bringing up that nowhere do you speak of either adviser's credential. If you want to say it is your opinion then you should say that in your article.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
Lee Elder you stated:
We have been careful to state that it is only an estimate, and that there are both known and unknown factors that would alter the estimate.
Please, point to where you talked about the unknown factors for this estimate. I can see small sections in your report where you speak of some limitations but these are fleeting thoughts at best and does not go in depth with what they are or how you attempted to overcome those unknown factors.
Even two of the three studies that you make references too, in their conclusions they go into deep discussion of what the limitations are.
You also have said twice now for those that disagree with your methodology to go do our own estimate. I will contend with you on this again. No one who disagrees with how you came to that methodology has claimed to make an estimate nor have they claimed to put this in a research article, which you yourself calls the article. You have claimed that you have presented this estimate to a conference also you have said that you have a leading expert in this field who has helped to come up with this estimate.
So the pressure is on you to defend your numbers. Scientists don't submit articles to the peer reviewed journals, and when someone disagrees with them, they say well go off and do your own study and prove me wrong. It is up to the person who has presented the article to prove their facts. If you think you have proven your estimate by use of facts then you should be able to defend them legitimately.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
Also the study that Martin Shilmer is based on just 103 patients with no indication of what the underlying disease process was. I am not sure how you can use this as the sole study when making an estimate that would rival the death toll of the American Casualties of the Korean or Vietnam Wars. That is such a small sample size to make such a dramatic estimate, especially when the study does not include any other information as to the cause of the extra deaths.
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What would happen to a JW who respectfully refused to fill out a no blood DPA?
by Island Man ini know you'll be involuntarily disassociated if you unrepentantly accepted a blood transfusion; and i know you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy if you openly disagreed with watchtower teaching.
what if you have done none of the above but simply respectfully refused to fill out the dpa without giving any reason for your refusal - so they can't accuse you of openly disagreeing with the no-blood doctrine and df you for apostasy.
they don't know why you're refusing and you're not giving them the reason - and you're being very respectful.. what can they do?.
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John Davis
All I know is that a lot of Witnesses will give a copy of their DPA to the congregation secretary along with a copy to the two health care agents. Not everyone does but if you did then those copies would be just as enforceable as the original.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
Lee Elder I did not claim to have written a research paper that used previous studies to make an estimate. if you want to act like a research arm then you need to be able to act like one in all ways.
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What would happen to a JW who respectfully refused to fill out a no blood DPA?
by Island Man ini know you'll be involuntarily disassociated if you unrepentantly accepted a blood transfusion; and i know you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy if you openly disagreed with watchtower teaching.
what if you have done none of the above but simply respectfully refused to fill out the dpa without giving any reason for your refusal - so they can't accuse you of openly disagreeing with the no-blood doctrine and df you for apostasy.
they don't know why you're refusing and you're not giving them the reason - and you're being very respectful.. what can they do?.
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John Davis
Greenhornet. The issue with destroying it or not putting it in your hospital records is that if you have JW family members and they get a copy of the document from the congregation secretary, the copy is just as enforceable as the original.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
Lee Elder you stated:
There are inherent limitations when developing an estimate of something as complex as the Watchtower's partial blood transfusion ban. Of course it would be ideal if we had better data that would permit us to be more exact than we have been. There are both known limitations, and unknown limitations. With respects to Dr. Muramoto's method, here are his written comments to me:
Why is it that in your essay you do not include any of the limitations that you speak of here in that essay. You don't refer to anyways that you took to overcome some of those limitations.
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103
New Research at AJWRB
by Lee Elder inthe latest research article published at ajwrb estimates the number of jehovah's witnesses who have died from following or being coerced to follow watchtower's blood policy.
the numbers are staggering.
http://ajwrb.org/jehovahs-witnesses-and-blood-tens-of-thousands-dead-in-hidden-tragedy.
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John Davis
OrphanCrow:
You stated:
That is true. However, the number of infants/children that have succumbed to a no blood position are not included in any of the estimates that have been done on JW blood deaths. The retrospective studies that have been done, on which the estimates have extrapolated from, have only included the adult population.
Your statement in this is wrong. The study that the Doctor uses does include at least pediatric patients which totalled 123 or 9% of the study's population.